Iris The Tranny juggalette said

King Lucem Ferre said
I can list several reasons why Esham wouldn't be even close to being one of the greatest rappers of all time.  

*INCOMPREHENSIBLE HISSING*

His delivery is fucking beyond perfect, and his lyrics are a bit more than the "clever" we've been talking about, idk why we're talking about one liners, but yeah, compared to 99% of fucking brag rappers and shit he's on a different fucking level, but for me the big selling point of him is the delivery and the production, the lyrics are great don get me wrong, but that shit is way way way above most rappers. 

King Lucem Ferre said

Yeah, nobody brought up multis.

I won't fall, my nigga, I slipknot-XXXTentacion

Those are pretty entry level when it comes to clever lines the really REALLY smart ones are the ones that will go over your head if you don’t do the research for it.

Buddy if you're talking about clever lines, and "the ones that will go over your head" I think you named off the wrong slipknot.

I've always liked allusions, but what you listed off ain't shit (though the bar is way lower in rap, mostly comprising of just referencing real life crime or slang that's basically unique to their hometown so you won't get it the first time you hear it). Not saying it's not a good line, but if your trying to play the "look at this, it's clever" card, I'm a bit desensitized, seeing as my other genre is 90% comprised of it, part of the reason rap is as good as it is is because you can tell a story, that's why there's not nearly as much allusion, because you want your audience to know what's happening, but I am NOT SAYING rap shouldn't use allusions, because I love allusions, but it's not a strike against someone not to.

Edit: also I'm aware psychosocial is more symbolism than allusion, but I just meant forms of expression in general.  

this song got creepy real fast he probably sang it to his 7 year old victims as he was groping their privates.

 ♤ I love "Psychosocial Baby". More than just a novelty mash up. I think it is catchy and hilarious.

♡ Esham is excellent. I dont think he is anywhere near a top lyricist as far as technical abilities or cleverness. But he is important, subtly genius and entertaining.

◇ Drunkalo, the weather broke, eh? We just got hit by that "Bomb Cyclone" storm. Shut down the weed store 2 hours ago. Should have shut it down earlier. Driving home was, at times, zero visibility. ZERO. Super dangerous. I was in a field for a minute.

♧ Trump... Google who originally wrote "You Are Not Alone". Truth is more pedo than fiction.

Old Mr Dangerous said

♡ Esham is excellent. I dont think he is anywhere near a top lyricist as far as technical abilities or cleverness. But he is important, subtly genius and entertaining.

ftr, i said he was top 5 at a particular style.. not in lyricism in general..

The Warlock said

Old Mr Dangerous said
♡ Esham is excellent. I dont think he is anywhere near a top lyricist as far as technical abilities or cleverness. But he is important, subtly genius and entertaining.

ftr, i said he was top 5 at a particular style.. not in lyricism in general..  

I know. More geared toward everyone in general. 

He also has a unique voice.

another band i just came across on Youtube.  Love her voice.  Her aggressive vocals to cleans is so fast and sounds good.  Great stuff out of New Zealand 

Iris The Tranny juggalette said

King Lucem Ferre said
I can list several reasons why Esham wouldn't be even close to being one of the greatest rappers of all time.  

*INCOMPREHENSIBLE HISSING*

His delivery is fucking beyond perfect, and his lyrics are a bit more than the "clever" we've been talking about, idk why we're talking about one liners, but yeah, compared to 99% of fucking brag rappers and shit he's on a different fucking level, but for me the big selling point of him is the delivery and the production, the lyrics are great don get me wrong, but that shit is way way way above most rappers.

The way you talk about 'most rappers' lets me know that you really don't know shit about hip hop or rap out side of your little bubble. Explore more because hip hop is extremely diverse. Especially since the artist you're defending is a brag rapper that talks about doing crime a lot. I respect Esham for his innovation, he's definitely a legend, Warlock definitely shined some great lines of his that I missed because I was too focused on the corny "I added 2 and 2 then came up with 4" lines, but the people he's inspired have all been much much better. Plus, his later catalog has definitely gone down hill compared to his older classics (which are only considered classics among us)

Buddy if you're talking about clever lines, and "the ones that will go over your head" I think you named off the wrong slipknot.

Name one clever line from Slipknot.

I've always liked allusions, but what you listed off ain't shit (though the bar is way lower in rap, mostly comprising of just referencing real life crime or slang that's basically unique to their hometown so you won't get it the first time you hear it). Not saying it's not a good line, but if your trying to play the "look at this, it's clever" card, I'm a bit desensitized, seeing as my other genre is 90% comprised of it, part of the reason rap is as good as it is is because you can tell a story, that's why there's not nearly as much allusion, because you want your audience to know what's happening, but I am NOT SAYING rap shouldn't use allusions, because I love allusions, but it's not a strike against someone not to.

You really shouldn't talk about a genre you really know nothing about. It always bothers me when people like you speak of hip hop like it's nothing but gangsters and thugs rapping bout the streets or what every bigoted bullshit you have in your head. Mean while you're listening to bands who typically only sing about the same things. It's blatantly, and ironically, superficial.

Edit: also I'm aware psychosocial is more symbolism than allusion, but I just meant forms of expression in general.  

Most of Psychosocial is facebook meme fake deep lyrics. If you think different show me something from it, other wise it's a shallow angst driven song about their misanthropy. And I don't mean to shit on Slipknot, I love them for what they are and what they do but I will never pretend that they are 'smart' music. That's not their appeal. Their appeal is raw emotion.

I'll go right back to the Death Grips lyric "Goin' back to Tangier with some Jordans and a spear" from the song 'Hacker'. The song has three meanings. It's about hacking huge corporations, it's about killing rivals (as much as you'd want to condescend it you can't pretend that you don't listen to tons of music about mindless violence) and it's about how he's infiltrating the music industry despite making music that completely rebels against the tropes and standards set by the industry. That lyric is the opener that sets the tone. Tangier is a Moroccan city that has often times played a huge role as a haven for espionage through out history because of it being an international zone. So he's going back to tangier because he's going under cover, he's going with Jordans because they are sneakers and he has a spear because he's on the hunt, hes going to attack. That's word play. It's super clever word play that makes have to look up or learn shit so you can understand it. This type of shit is almost exclusive to hip hop and it's a long standing piece of how hip hop is judged.

I can give plenty of hip hop songs or artists that rap about things completely out side of the stereotypes you've put on the genre that you claim to hate despite liking rappers that have fit those stereotypes.

Iris The Tranny juggalette said
First of all, I don't think rap is all the same, I've heard a fucking great deal, but you cannot deny even for a second that the face if rap is exactly that, "thugs and crime" I didn't say that it was everything, but you are lying through your teeth if you say it's not what sells, the only exception being the "emo rap" scene (I know a lot of people hate that label, but you know what I'm referring to) which is selling like crazy.

https://www.billboard.com/charts/year-end/2018/rap-albums\

Drake is not thugs and crime. Post Malone is not thugs and crime. Cardi B is not thugs and crime. Travi$ Scott is not thugs and crime. XXXTentacion is not thugs and crime. Kendrick Lamar is not thugs and crime. J. Cole is not thugs and crime. Going off of that, the face of hip hop right now is clubbing and having fun OR being socially conscious. 

But anyways you are fucking bullshiting yourself if you think that slipknot's lyrics are just "fake deep" nonsense, not everything you can't understood with one Google search is fake. They spent for fucking ever on those lyrics. And in terms of "clever lines" I ain't about to write a list. 

You know how long they spent on the lyrics? You know what they really mean? Is there anything there other than you're personal interpretation?

You won't write a list because you can't. I implore you to do so. It might get me to appreciate them more than I already do.

And fine, let's say Slipknot is just edgy bullshit. You're still in the face of bands like system of a down and Rage Against the Machine. 

So you're saying that the pop rock bands that you like are more intelligent than rappers because they give you lyrics that you emotionally relate to despite the fact that you can't list lyrics that aren't cliche?

And how the actual fuck do I know "nothing about rap" I've suffered through the mainstream and delved into the underground.

You called it thugs and crime. The top selling artists of 2018 are not thugs and crime rappers. That hasn't been the face of hip hop since the 90s and even then I would not just minimize the message of NWA or Tupac to 'thugs and crime'.

But most of fucking all how in the goddamn hell am I "bigoted". Bigoted for fucking what. Bigoted against mainstream music?!?

Bigoted against hip hop because every time you see Drake you think "man, the face of hip hop is a criminal thug". Or maybe you think it's 2Pac. What ever reason it is it's because you fail to understand it at all. It's the equivalent of somebody saying that ICP is just murder and rape.

Firstly I don't give a fuck what the original definition of that word was because nowadays it has a lot less to do with how people think and a lot more to do with how they're born. And you can't play the "you don't know what you're talking about" card when I was referring to mainstream shit, mainstream, as in FUCKING EVERYONE KNOWS 

Drake. Everybody knows Drake he's hands down the biggest rapper right now. He is not a gangster rapper, actually far from it. B.o.B is not a gangster rapper. Everybody knows Lupe Fiasco's kick push and his first two albums are considered classics. He's not a gangster rapper. Kanye West is not a gangster rapper. Kid Cudi is not a gangster rapper. Kendrick Lamar. J. Cole. I really don't think you ever actually sat down with any of these artists and gave them an actual fair listen.

And your 3 meanings are well done but I just gave you a song that a shit ton of people have different interpretations of and you just dismissed it entirely.

I love Psychosocial. It's a great song. Not in the category of word play. Not every song needs to be super smart in that way. The song is just really cliche scrutiny of the way society works including religion and politics. It's appeal is more emotional than thoughtful. I've heard it done better. Might be harsh to just call it 'dumb' but it's not exactly the most thought provoking music and it's word play is no where near as clever as what I provided. That's what our discussion was about. Word play. Not which lyrics resonate with us the most.

But while we're here, accept the soul sucking existential pessimism of Daughters.

Show you something different, a million people already have, I made a comment about Googling it once, it sounds like you didn't even do that, and I damn well know you're not gonna make your own interpretation because that would take not dismissing everything at face value for two minutes. How about this, if that's too edgy for you, go listen to all out life and tell me if it's about music or politics.

This is what bothers me. Just as a music fan. I. Fucking. Listen. To. Slipknot. I'm not dismissing it at face value if I enjoy it. I'm just not going to pretend the lyrics are smarter than they are because it has a special meaning to me. Ironically, though, this is what you literally just did with majority of hip hop. I get bothered when people do this with ICP and Twiztid. Then I get bothered when you guys do this with Kanye West or basically any rapper that doesn't wear face paint and pander to juggalos. The fact that you think hip hop is thugs and crime shows that's exactly what you're doing right now. Take what ever big name rapper that you think justifies that idea and I guarantee that their music is more than you're making it out to be.

By the way, I did google it to make sure I'm not missing anything in the first place. I didn't get anything new.

And no, I don't condensed against mindless violence, cannibal corpse was my computer background for like a year. 

And I don't hate the mainstream topics, I just hate their sound,

Mainstream doesn't even have a sound anymore. You hate mumble rap? You hate the triplet flows? You hate the clubby trap production?

and I think it's a bit overdone, and even then there's still some good shit that pops up I talk down to "most brag rappers" because it's been done to death, and people just keep repeating themselves,

Some of your favorite rappers participate in 'brag rap'. Really depends on what you mean by that. Wu-Tang are definitely braggers, so is Nas. Maybe you're only talking about materialistic bragging. A lot of what's popular is club music because it's dumb fun. Most artists that only do dumb superficial braggadocio bullshit end up disappearing. Lil Yachty's album flopped and he's disappeared. Same with Lil Pump. He's on his way out now.

but that's solving itself with the aforementioned rise of "emo rap" and don't start an argument about me calling it that, I'm not trying to be disrespectful or annnnything like that, that's just what I hear ppl call it.

I'm not going to argue it, it's definitely emo rap. Thank Kanye and Kid Cudi for that. Trivia you might not care about, but back in 2008 Kanye did an interview talking about his up coming 808s and Heartbreak album. He told them that his focus was on crating melodies and that 10 years from then hip hop would follow in his footsteps and become more about melodies than lyrics. He nailed that prediction on the head. One of the big reasons why I used to defend his big headed statements.

Edit: also btw, Death Grips is bomb, just like to clarify no shade to them.  

MC Ride is my favorite homeless guy.

This is gon be really outta order because the quote thing isn't working

King Lucem Ferre said

Drake. Everybody knows Drake he’s hands down the biggest rapper right now

Nah, it's post, don get me wrong he's huge, but post malone is fucking huge too, and I think edges him out.

Mainstream doesn’t even have a sound anymore. You hate mumble rap? You hate the triplet flows? You hate the clubby trap production?

Not always but often, I don't totally hate triplet flows, it used to annoy the shit out of me (see snoop dog on the manner to see how I felt about it), I just got pissed when I heard it. I don't hate the mumbling that much, depending on the song it can really work, but other times it really hurts the song even to the point of being a complete failure. Finally the trap production, I actually kind of do hate this, because 90% of it so fucking dull, every time I hear these dull ass cookie cutter trap songs my mind just burns with, come on do somethingggggggggggg, everytime I hear these dull trap songs I just wish I was hearing Ghostmane or Ouija or any of the ones that keep shit interesting, I've been kinda slowly going through random artists on ＴＲＡＳＨ 新 ドラゴン because so many of them looooooooooove making new and weird shit and keeping it new and fresh. 

Also yeah, I did mean materialistic brag rap, aka flexing, and that's not going anywhere, but it's not like I hate it, I just think it's overdone. There's still countless amazing songs all about flexing, but when I hear some new guy I've never heard before talking about how rich he is and all his shit, I'm just kind of like, ugh, put on some 

So you’re saying that the pop rock bands that you like are more intelligent than rappers because they give you lyrics that you emotionally relate to despite the fact that you can’t list lyrics that aren’t cliche?

Are you honestly telling me System doesn't have intelligent lyrics, is EVERYTHING that's not rap just nothing to you? in the lyrical department that is.

Here's some lyrics from the most seemingly bizzare system songs, I E A I A I O with my notes on what I think they mean (with a little help from others) that sounds like absolute nonsense and that I'm 100% sure you'd take a pure face value, but I'm gonna break it down anyways

Sorry I didn't break down psychosocial, I might later (or maybe the negative one or a similar song), it's just that I've broken this one down so many times it's what I default to

Anyways, one other thing you seem to have forgot is that the stereotypical rap lyrics aren't just crime, they're crime, sex, and drugs, and flexing (flexing how rich you are) that's just kind of how it's always been, don get me wrong, I don't hate any of that, I think it's been done to death, and I'm glad that this new wave is changing it up a shit ton, but everybody is still flexing like crazy, I think that's just gotten more common tbh, and drugs have just kinda shifted, shifted from weed and ice to zans and benzos, everybody loves zans now (I tried zans once, they were okay). I may not have conveyed that very well, but that's the full stereotype. Oh, and also, a lot of the people you named have crime as undertones like posts line in Rockstar about drivebys. And anyways, even though crime is now an undertone, it's still there, 6ix 9ine may be out for the count, but he was still goddamn huge as fuck, and he was all about crime, and nothing else, joyner lucas is huge rn and he has lines relating to crime calling himself a "soldier" and saying he'll "hit em with an east coast smoke" (idk if he has a more on the nose song, I haven't heard him much), also, that list isn't all of them, 21 savage, Kodak, according to some charts some of the old big names are still killing it, the list goes on still, but even that is irrelivant because as I said, the focus has shifted to flexing and drugs, and that was always there, that, has not changed. 

And as for there not being a mainstream sound, bullshit, first of all we already went over triplets and trap production, but everything seems to have slowed the fuck down and gotten all sad and shit, see Juice WRLD and Post (who I stand by as the biggest rn) as well as Drake, and I don't hate that, I'll admit I like some of Juice's flow, even though I think his lyrics could use some work. But tbh, I think our shit has em beat, Juggalo artists have done that more mentally focused stuff forever, especially Twizitd. 

But yeah, I think the main thing I'm tryna say is that the overused tropes aren't just crime. And stop trashing metal lyrics just because you didn't get them.