Pigg said
A couple of things:

 

First, I don't think Iggy is the best example of cultural appropriation we can give. I think Miley Cyrus is a much better example. When she started (post-Hannah Montana) she did bubble-gum pop music with some country elements. THEN, with the album Bangers she COMPLETELY changed her musical style, lyrical content, and aesthetic to be that of black America. She's on stage Twerking, she has black dancers in her music twerking. Etc.

Then, in 2017 she released Younger Now and completely discarded all of that. She dressed more conservatively, changed her style BACK to a country aesthetic, and says that she was being young and now she's more mature. She said that the sex and materialiism in hip hop pushed her away from the genre.

Then, this year, she releases and album that goes BACK to the previous style. She has songs with Ghostface Killah and Cardi B. She's posting videos of herself Twerking again. She wears black culture like a costume or a mask she can take on and off when it suits her.

 

Also Rob:

 

I feel like we both have to admit that we have some cognitive dissonance. ICP definitely appropriated black culture. Quite a bit. They're also incredibly sexist and homophobic. In his book, J said they didn't let black kids wrestle with them. Horrorcore was started by black artists, and ICP benefitted off doing the same kind of music and being white. As did Eminem after them.

Esham has never sold what ICP and Eminem sold. Geto Boys never sold what ICP and Eminem have sold. Above the Law never sold what ICP sold. No black horrorcore group has sold what ICP and Eminem have sold.  Yes, they pay homage to their roots. Yes, they have always tried to support these people. But, they still took the music that was created by black culture, made it "white" and became rich and famous as a result.   

Holy shit. Great post man. I appreciate the input.

I agree that Miley Cyrus (as you describe, I don’t pay attention to her) sounds like a MUCH more valid case to possibly be made. 

And yes, as I already mentioned, ICP is just as guilty of appropriation. And when they told black people they couldn’t wrestle with them it was because they perceived them as superior and too athletic haha!! That’s racist!

JuggaloJ said

Some people may assume stuff about them because of their race, but I think we can all objectively agree they are more privileged then me and have many opportunities that I never will.  

Will Smith's children? Yeah, I absolutely agree. Class and wealth are much much much more influential than race. However race still is influential and does terribly contribute to the wealth inequality problems that we have.

One thing that I do hate about liberal people is they completely forget that us white trash are victims of oppression too.

That's not to say I support the victim ideology where people give up. Being a victim doesn't mean success, how ever you define it, is impossible. It just means odds are stacked against you. People can defy the odds, I never want people to give up.

I shouldn’t have used the words free will but consensual. Yes, that free will argument fucks with my head and I choose to ignore it’s exist most of the time.

From my understanding is free will is my ability to choose my next step according to the options that ive learned. As opposed to the options that i have not learned? Choosing a ball or a destination is a guess. Id like to see a test tube baby being programmed from birth to only know the John Travolta bubble boy and Pixar movie say he wants to go to Cairo. That kid is going to say anywhere outside this fucking bubble. 

My question is between right and wrong. Does free will make the decision for us? Am i programmed to choose right everytime? Why are others programmed to do wrong? That makes 99% of people on death row innocent. It wasnt them, someone programmed them that way. Labrons card stats go up with the assist and the crowd goes wild!

Drunkalo said
From my understanding is free will is my ability to choose my next step according to the options that ive learned. As opposed to the options that i have not learned? Choosing a ball or a destination is a guess. Id like to see a test tube baby being programmed from birth to only know the John Travolta bubble boy and Pixar movie say he wants to go to Cairo. That kid is going to say anywhere outside this fucking bubble. 

My question is between right and wrong. Does free will make the decision for us? Am i programmed to choose right everytime? Why are others programmed to do wrong? That makes 99% of people on death row innocent. It wasnt them, someone programmed them that way. Labrons card stats go up with the assist and the crowd goes wild!  

The argument against free will is that the universe works on a cause and effect relationship so everything that we think we choose is nothing but a predetermined action set off in a chain of reactions. Neurosciences believe that the fact that there is a delay between brain activity and the stimuli that cause it there is an obvious lack of free will. ( I may be disingenuously oversimplifying things because I'm no neuriscientist.) Also the predictability of people's actions after observing their brain patterns and brain chemistry.

How ever, I think that free will depends on the cause and effect relationship to exist in any meaningful way. Our choices are us trying to influence things into our own interest. It needs the cause and effect to exist because with out a cause there is no choice and with out an effect there is no reason to choose. And, like what you've said, I think the amount of perception we have is the determining factor of how much choice we have (outside of physical limiters). So we recognize that it is completely illogical to get mad at a rock and blame it for hitting us when thrown because it was never conscious of the fact that it was thrown, never had a choice in how it reacts it just reacts in an immediate and obvious way. Human beings have a consciousness and can perceive the information around so we're held accountable for how we 'choose' to react. People tend to see it as a dichotomy (like many other things) when it doesn't seem to be like that. There's so little to know about such an abstract concept especially when there is not an honest way to test it but I thing free will varies on differing levels. So we both have agency but are also slaves to influence. It's important to see both sides of that coin when looking at holding people, especially ourselves, accountable and recognizing the power of influence and how often people are just slaves to their brain patterns/brain chemistry.

Pigg said

Here's a video with Sam Harris that uses a thought experiment to show how free will is an illusion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwjD4hfrDsg

 

Here's an article a free will experiment

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/free-will-could-all-be-an-illusion-scientists-suggest-after-study-that-shows-choice-could-just-be-a7008181.html  

Sam's thought experiment is really shitty and if I remember right it's because he assumes the predictability of choice to be the lack of choice.

JuggaloJ said
I disagree. I absolutely believe MLK would be happy to see the world we live in (not that it’s perfect) and the way you and others continue to act like it’s a terrible oppressive country we live in is a joke compared to the America he knew. I believe he would want white people to be able to do black music which they appreciate with no issue, because that’s an un-racist world.

I didn't say he wouldn't be happy. I said he wouldn't agree with you. 

I don’t think racism is hatred. I don’t think that you hate black people. I think you are still racist because you look at the world constantly, non-stop, in the terms of color and are telling people what they should/shouldn’t do based on their skin color.

I'm not telling anybody what they should or shouldn't do. I'm talking about systemic issues and using real world examples. 

And yes, capitalism does mean people make $ not “off of” but with the assistance of others work. This is true. But when you take a job you do that voluntarily, therefore it is not exploitation. If you don’t like the job for the rate offered, go somewhere else. Nobody is requiring you do the job and therefore nobody is exploiting you. 

Minimum wage workers are both "voluntary" and exploited. 

Im very close to having my Masters degree in Sociology. I hear the logic of “systematic racism” day in and out and I drive my professors crazy dismantling it with my papers. Even they admit I make great arguments. 

Great arguments don't mean you're right. It means you've got the ability to convince others that you're right. 

Systematic racism does not exist in America. If you can’t point to a law on the books in this country that discriminates against anyone I’d be glad to join the cause along side you to condemn it...

Things can exist without being codified into law. For example, sundown towns were a thing that weren't codified into law but still resulted in tons of people being harassed, assaulted, or murdered. 

A recent study showed that college professors were more likely to respond to emails with names more closely associated to whiteness than to Black or Latinx sounding names. 

Another study showed that kindergarten teachers watch black students more during free play time than their white classmates, punish them more often, and that they break the rules about equally. 

But I’m willing to bet all of your explanations of systematic racism entail phantom villains whom you can’t actually point to you’ll just claim they’re “out there in the ether somewhere”

The systems are the villains. 

Not to say racists don’t exist in America, they absolutely do. Or that minorities don’t have economic disparities with that of white people due to the history of racism in this country, they do. But the system itself in current day America is not racist whatsoever.  

Black communities are policed more heavily, black people are arrested more often and get harsher sentences.

Every one of our systems is embedded with white supremacy. 

JuggaloJ said
And also, just for good measure, a white person does not automatically have supremacy or privilege as you’d put it.

People are individuals, you don’t assume their status based on race. That’s called racism. 

I’m white, am I more privileged then Will Smith’s kids?

No I’m not...  

Yes, because class and race are different things. Read some bell hooks if you don't understand intersectionality.

Pigg said
A couple of things:

 

First, I don't think Iggy is the best example of cultural appropriation we can give. I think Miley Cyrus is a much better example. When she started (post-Hannah Montana) she did bubble-gum pop music with some country elements. THEN, with the album Bangers she COMPLETELY changed her musical style, lyrical content, and aesthetic to be that of black America. She's on stage Twerking, she has black dancers in her music twerking. Etc.

Then, in 2017 she released Younger Now and completely discarded all of that. She dressed more conservatively, changed her style BACK to a country aesthetic, and says that she was being young and now she's more mature. She said that the sex and materialiism in hip hop pushed her away from the genre.

Then, this year, she releases and album that goes BACK to the previous style. She has songs with Ghostface Killah and Cardi B. She's posting videos of herself Twerking again. She wears black culture like a costume or a mask she can take on and off when it suits her.

 

Also Rob:

 

I feel like we both have to admit that we have some cognitive dissonance. ICP definitely appropriated black culture. Quite a bit. They're also incredibly sexist and homophobic. In his book, J said they didn't let black kids wrestle with them. Horrorcore was started by black artists, and ICP benefitted off doing the same kind of music and being white. As did Eminem after them.

Esham has never sold what ICP and Eminem sold. Geto Boys never sold what ICP and Eminem have sold. Above the Law never sold what ICP sold. No black horrorcore group has sold what ICP and Eminem have sold.  Yes, they pay homage to their roots. Yes, they have always tried to support these people. But, they still took the music that was created by black culture, made it "white" and became rich and famous as a result.   

I said a few posts back that they are guilty of cultural appropriation. They just do it marginally more responsibly.

Sorry for the delay in replies. A friend of mine died the other day and I've been lost in grief. 

Dude, i was going to quote that same line. I wanna hang that on the fridge and shit.

I apologize, I also should have lead with sorry for your loss. 

OMD, we got our pivot man. One more and we can have a square jerk!