Hypnotized Ninja said

Yeah it's disconcerting to say the least. I hope they never perform it live bc saying the words in secession is alarming.

Maybe they can just remix Guacamole Nigga Penis & rap over that live instead.

https://soundcloud.com/nigprorecords/guacamole-nigga-penis?in=nigprorecords/sets/cumming-on-niggas

To comment on a few of the discussions going on in this thread: 

-J's use of racial slurs in "Afraid of Life" - as someone else mentioned he's not actually saying this to be racist or hurtful but I did have to rewind that part when I first heard it to be like "did he seriously just say that shit?". I understand the context but, maybe it wasn't the best way to go. 

-J's slur/voice - I am pretty certain J's had his teeth, or at least some of them, replaced with veneers. It's been a couple of years but there was some interview he was in where he even commented that he just got some dental work done and had stuff in his mouth still. I know someone else around J's age that's had the same thing done and she talked differently while getting used to them. I'm not certain this is the entire explanation for why he sounds different or if anything else is at play, but I'd be willing to bet this is a big part of it. 

-The EP itself - I never put too much stock in this bonus releases and EPs. We only got this EP because the release of YYL has been delayed and so they just took tracks that aren't making the final cut and put them out as a means for some of us to shut the fuck up. Like "hey, we're delaying the release, but here's some tracks so you'll quit your bitching". In reality, it's shit that could have been saved up for another Forgotten Freshness in the future.  If I end up enjoying any amount of releases like this, I consider it a bonus. Between this EP and the House Party Peep Show, there's a few tracks that I like but most of them are just "ok" and I don't see myself returning back to them much. 

T.O. said
I'm sorry, but you guys are being ridiculous and honestly kinda hypocritical.

J mentioned those slurs in context, quoting hypothetical racists with the intention of criticizing them. Where exactly is the problem, like, whatsoever?

The argument seems to be that the context doesn't matter and just the words by themselves shouldn't be mentioned. But then you agree with Bill O'Reilly, the protestors who got Disney to cancel The Great Milenko, and all the critics of ICP and Hip-Hop in general from the 90's. How many ICP songs can be defended if context doesn't matter?

The Neden Game is a song about 2 pieces of shit who like to abuse women for fun. That's what that song is. Does that mean the song is indefensible? Hell no, because the characters are being portrayed as what they are, pieces of shit.

How many of their songs are written from the perspective of a serial killer and other terrible toxic people? We give them a "pass" (in fact it's what attracted many of us to ICP and horrorcore in the first place) because we rationalize it, like, yeah they are putting us in the shoes of a murderer, but that doesn't mean they condone violence, they are just telling stories in a raw way. Yes, instead of mentioning those words, J could have just alluded to them, but ICP's catalog of violent songs could also have been told from the perspective of victims, instead of the perpetrators. But that's not their art, their art is violent and raw. 

I do see how it could be uncomfortable live, when you have a whole crowd singing along. But why the fuck should that be the standard of what's admissible in a song? It's the same logic as saying violence and sex in movies are wrong because it's not safe for children. Well, it's not meant to be for children. The same way this line is not meant to be enjoyed live, in the same way you'd enjoy a dance track live. There is this trend where everything is expected to be family friendly and easily digestible and it's just ironic to have Juggalos starting to expect artists to abide by that.
To be clear, though, I'm not excusing being racist by them just being raw and not family friendly. Because this line is not racist, it is merely talking about racism in a raw and non-family friendly way. Like people in this thread did just now when they (rightfully) called out ICP for using (not just mentioning) the term "fag".
And again, what's really worse live? A line quoting racists in order to condemn them, or a crowd singing along to a song like Bitch, I Lied, which puts the audience in the shoes of a manipulative misogynist, bragging about being a manipulative misogynist. (I dunno if they ever play that song live, but it's just an example, and if they don't, I think we can all agree that it's not due to any didactic concerns on their part. I love that song, btw. It's a good example of what I mean by violent and raw art and I don't think it's condoning the manipulative misogynist, it just portrays him like that and he's certainly not the good guy in the story.)

Some of y'all are concerned about J just using this as a justification to say homophobic and racist slurs. That is a real thing that people do, but I think it's laughable to assume this here. At least as far as the racist slurs go. Throughout their career you can find plenty of examples of ICP glorifying violence, being sexist, and being homophobic. That's a part of them and I hope they try to work on that. But one thing nobody needs to be concerned about when it comes to ICP, is racism. Come on y'all. They have been super consistent on that front. If you are worried about ICP trying to get away with some problematic shit, they are actually a target-rich environment. Like, how about how they make the people they kill in their songs racists, bigots and pedophiles in order to actually justify violence and dehumanization? What about Shaggy's misogynistic verse on Loyalty, just one track before Afraid of Life? I'm not saying this needs to be called out all the time, I'm just saying if you see an issue with quoting a racist in order to criticize them, and actually think that's J trying to get away with saying something bigoted, but on the other hand you have no issue with the stuff mentioned above, that's hypocritical and you need to get your priorities straight.

Final thought: I get how hearing these terms can make somebody uncomfortable. But uncomfortable shit does not need to be excluded from art (or public discourse for that matter). I find the song The Tower very uncomfortable, but that's a testimony to the quality of that song, imo. It deals with an uncomfortable subject matter and does not sugar-coat it. I don't see the issue in that. On the contrary, it can even heighten it's artistic value, like it does with The Tower or J's verse on Marsh Lagoon. Is that the case with that line on Afraid of Life? Maybe not. But it's also not problematic whatsoever, especially because the intentions are unambiguously made clear, in the song and (when it comes to racism at least) throughout their whole career.

... Final final thought: I think often the best way to call people out is by holding up a mirror (if it's done correctly). Bigots hate it when you quote them, directly or indirectly. Hence, why I don't think it's problematic to repeat hateful shit, if it's done the right way. How do you do it the right way? By giving proper context and unambiguously criticizing, which is exactly what J did here.  

To be fair, in the replies I'm seeing including my own, I did not get the sense that anybody is actually calling the lyric in "Afraid Of Life" problematic necessarily. It was a bit of a shock hearing it the first time and maybe not the best approach in general, but I think all of us immediately then understood why he said those words much like in the same way in the other songs you're quoting. I don't think it's as serious as your reply is making it seem but still, I do understand and appreciate your response because you're certainly not wrong in the message you're conveying. 

T.O. said

Chevy2Dope said

To be fair, in the replies I'm seeing including my own, I did not get the sense that anybody is actually calling the lyric in "Afraid Of Life" problematic necessarily. It was a bit of a shock hearing it the first time and maybe not the best approach in general, but I think all of us immediately then understood why he said those words much like in the same way in the other songs you're quoting. I don't think it's as serious as your reply is making it seem but still, I do understand and appreciate your response because you're certainly not wrong in the message you're conveying.   

I think what you're saying is fair. However, just because I ended up delving into it more deeply and writing an (admittedly) excessive wall of text, doesn't mean that I think it's an incredibly huge deal. I just like thinking these topics through, because you can see these thinking patterns in other areas as well, in a broader cultural discourse. So I guess I got a bit triggered.

Maybe calling the responses "ridiculous" and "hypocritical" was unfair. But to be honest, I kinda stand by it. We all can be ridiculous and hypocritical at times, though, so it's all love and not a big deal in that sense.

To be more precise, these are the comments that triggered my reply:

BZA said

Did J really need to say those words on afraid of life 

Noah Fence said

J is putting the words into someone else’s mouth. It’s pretty tasteless but they’ve done it for decades with fag. It’s not great but I guess he feels like if it’s not him calling someone the slur it’s OK. I didn’t even hear them the first time, I focused on the lines right after. 

to be fair to Noah, he didn't make a big deal out of it and he almost defended J even. But I don't even agree that it's tasteless and I enjoy discourse.

WhoDaFuq said

yeah, i think the ‘putting the words in someone elses mouth’ reasoning is total bullshit.

This I completely disagree with and I find ridiculous and hypocritical for the reasons mentioned. Although I grant that there are definitely situations where this is true, this is not one of them and it's not generally true (which is what I took this to imply).

BZA said

He could of just said “racism” instead of the majority of slurs that aren’t the N word, its just weird and like he was trying to get a pass to say them

Same here. I don't see the point in that at all, and I disagree with the sentiment, which is why I argued against it.

Hypnotized Ninja said

Yeah it’s disconcerting to say the least. I hope they never perform it live bc saying the words in secession is alarming.

Same thing. I don't see it as disconcerting or alarming whatsoever, for the reasons mentioned, and I do find the charge kinda ridiculous and hypocritical.

krunk usually says

some disconcerting and alarming shit to say the least

 

Chevy2Dope said

To be fair, in the replies I’m seeing including my own, I did not get the sense that anybody is actually calling the lyric in “Afraid Of Life” problematic necessarily. [...] I don’t think it’s as serious as your reply is making it seem

I think people did find it problematic, some even said so. I think you are right that it is not as serious as it might seem from my reply, though. I just enjoy thinking and talking about things. I'm sure y'all will find some ridiculous and hypocritical stuff in my posts as well!  

All good man, like I said, I definitely appreciate where you're coming from because these sorts of things can become a slippery slope. Ultimately I don't think anybody here's trying to accuse J of racism because we damn well know it's quite the opposite with him. 

BZA said
Overall its unnecessary and cringy

Unnecessary? Strictly speaking, I guess so, but that is true for 90% of their lyrics and any other rappers lyrics. How many lines come to mind that are actually necessary?
Does it serve a purpose, though? Yeah, I think so. It adequately represents the attitudes bigots have towards their scapegoats. That is how they think of them. Could that point have made in a different way? Sure. But I don't see the problem with doing it this way.

Cringy? I honestly didn't find that part that cringy. He's calling out bigots by using their vocabulary. Does it take a genius to do that? Nope, but what's cringy about it?
I find Shaggy rapping on Loyalty about how hot but disgusting and diseased women should stay the fuck away from him far more cringy, tbh. Just an example.

BZA said
Why didn't he include the N word in his list? Would you be fine hearing him say that? 

Well, tbh, yeah, that word would have belonged on that list, because that is certainly what your common bigot thinks, more so than "wop" even. It would have been more controversial and way more people would have felt a certain way about it (probably including J himself), so obviously that's why he didn't include it. But I would have defended it because I do think the same reason applies. Like, I remember I saw this older reporter who was running up to a politician whose racist text messages had just been leaked, and he got up in his face and went "what makes you think it is OK to call somebody a 'nigger'?!" and of course the politician just ignored him and kept walking. But people then started to actually attack the reporter! For having uttered the word, eventhough he was the one trying to hold the politician accountable and confronting him with his own texts! That stuff really baffles me. It really feels like a "shoot the messenger" situation to me. (Edit: just to be clear, if it were me making the song, I wouldn't have mentioned the word either. But that doesn't make it intrinsically wrong to mention it (it is wrong to use it though!))

BZA said
He wasn't being racist so he should of said it?  

I'm not saying he should have, it's not his job. I'm just saying I don't see an issue if it's done right. And again, that means proper context + unambiguous condemnation. Which was clearly satisfied here.

Some of you cunts need to drink a cup of concrete and harden the fuck up! HA HA

Banning anything including words gives them more power and makes them taboo and cooler.

This cancel culture bullshit is already falling in on itself. HA HA

thatjuggal91 said
Who let PC Principal into this chat, getting overly worked up over ICP lyrics😂  

Yes how dare people discuss the lyrics of the band we've all been listening to for most of our lives 

thatjuggal91 said

Theirs nothing wrong with discussing lyrics on a serious note, it's just I think some people over analyze certain lyrics. We all know ICP tends to rap from a point of view. The whole song is basically from the views of danger, all the madness and evil we experience in life.

 Lots of things ICP said in the past would have had people losing their head today,  "IE: I'm about to enroll in Columbine, and finish the fucking job"

 We all know J has a very PC daughter so I doubt he's trying to offend people intentionally with the recent line, but at the same time he's diving into the reality of the perspective of the evil that lives in our world.  

I don't exactly disagree with you, it's just weird to say things like we shouldn't take them seriously. If it makes someone uncomfortable, it's a good time to sit down and parse it out. Like I said a few pages back, ICP have been using homophobic and mysogynistic slurs for decades so it's weird to me to see people think that's OK but some of the racial ones aren't. It's also weird that anybody who knows rachel loves her to death, she's a vibrant part of this community, but the name she uses when rapping is also a racial slur. It's just a racial slur that most of society is OK with.

The lines get drawn funny and people take notice. Someone said would you have been OK if J included the N word in the verse and that's a great point. I would be squicked out by that. 

Also I don't think it's fair to say J doesn't want to offend people because of his "PC Daughter". ICP have always been a little PC. Back when white rappers (some of whom were on their label) freely used the softer form of the n word, they refused despite being part of the same scene.

Discussion and criticism of entertainment and where social etiquette is and was and where it's going is all part of engaging with media. I was watching the show American Gods last night and they had a character drop a homophobic slur and another character be awkward about transgender and gender non conforming people in a way that felt very out of place of the show (which opened with a woman consuming a man with her vagina, and a man and a djinn having a beautiful homosexual sex scene). Because the creative team behind the show changed, something that clashed with where the show started left a bad taste in people's mouths. It's OK to acknowledge that.